Double Standard?

First I’ll address circumcision which goes to your very first point of my body my choice. Which is exactly the point and why many people are vehemently against it. It’s not anyone’s body but the child’s and making decisions for someone else’s body IS the problem. Second part. When a child is born it no longer becomes about the adults in this situation. The child didn’t ask to exist. And they are *entitled* to be supported by both their parents. Because it’s not about the adults.

the last point you made i actually strongly agree, and i have always always said this! if a man and woman have sex and fall pregnant, and the woman wants to abort, that is fine, even if the man doesn’t want to abort it’s “her body, her choice”, but when a woman falls pregnant and wants to keep it but the man is adamant he doesn’t want to be a father or isn’t ready to be a father and decides to walk away, he’s a deadbeat and gets thrown “it takes two to tango” and all kinds of shit. yes it takes two to tango, but if a woman wants to abort she can whether the father agrees or not, but if a woman wants to keep it and the father doesn’t then he gets agro for walking away?? there’s definitely double standards there and it really gets my back up! X

I think some people do have double standards. Saying that, I’m not pro-abortion, but I do think it’s a woman’s choice whether to continue a pregnancy. I’m also not anti-circumcision, but I do think it should be up to the individual that has the penis. I think all adults of sound mind should be able to do what they want with their own bodies. On the other topic. If I have sons, I will be telling them not to have unprotected sex with any woman they wouldn’t be prepared to have a child with. Whether they listen is another thing. Me and my husband discussed contraception and what we’d do if it failed the first week we got together.

I feel like the issue is that you should be able to do what’s best for YOUR body & since a baby obviously isn’t able to - why should the dad get to decide because the child may have a different view to the dad I do get the second point however it’s men who have sex with no protection and then say oh no I don’t want the baby that I think are irresponsible because they should know there’s a good chance they could get the woman pregnant so they should’ve taken more responsibility, I also feel like men know it’s ultimately the woman’s choice so should be more mindful of that? Obviously you can use protection and still pregnant so I totally get that & im not even disagreeing with that point because I do understand it, just making other points alongside!

Your body = your choice in both cases. Your baby can't even consent at being cutted. Not the same at all.

@Aurélie I completely agree, I'm struggling to see how abortion and circumcision are even remotely the same argument. A mother should have an equal say in what is right for her child in every scenario. Just because she doesn't have a penis doesn't mean that she has no right as to whether or not her son is mutilated!

@Jacklyn it's not an argument for either. Just a question about double standards in both areas.

You're comparing apples and oranges. An abortion isn't done to a baby, it is done to an non sentient lump of cells. It only effect the woman's body permanently. Circumcision is a mutilation to a living human being. One that can not defend or advocate for themselves. The father does not need to live with the consequences, the child does. It is brutal and should be illegal everywhere.

Then I think you should provide an example of double standards that's actually relevant then. Should a woman have the deciding factor in abortion? Yes - whilst she is carrying that child in her body, and right up until birth, it is her sole responsibility. Should a mother or father solely and independently be able to decide on circumcision? No - after birth, things like this should be a joint parenting decision, unless one parent is absent for whatever reason.

@Jacklyn this is the kind of response I was looking for. An actual explanation as to why one way or another. This is the first and only explanation of stance that isn't just from an emotional point of view.

@Hanna-Sofia we will have to agree to disagree on when a baby is a baby.

@Aurélie this doesn't answer the question the stance of "If you don't have a uterus, you don't have a say". The exact same could be said for "if you don't have a penis, you don't have a say."

I'm actually saying that as someone who never could have an abortion. I am pro-choice, but after being in the situation myself I couldn't go through with it. But I stand with my point. You are comparing apples and oranges.

@Cass what about "if you don't have a penis, you don't have a say."? And there are female condoms as well. I agree, both are responsible, but if condoms are available to everyone, both male and female versions, shouldn't both parties be held to the same standard?

@Hanna-Sofia a non-sentient clump of cells, huh? Just curious, did you have any ultrasounds during your pregnancies? OP I agree with you on the double standards.

@Hanna-Sofia So what are the apples and oranges, then? Your statement: "(Circumcision) is a mutilation to a living human being. One that can not defend or advocate for themselves. The father does not need to live with the consequences, the child does. It is brutal and should be illegal everywhere." Is exactly the stance for those against abortion. Except the child doesn't get to live. So, staying away from the emotional side of things, it's purely about double standards. Not right and wrong.

With having a child the stakes aren’t the same for a man and a woman so why should men get an equal say? Pregnancy, birth (and often once the baby is born) is a very different experience. Men have a say in deciding to have unprotected sex and who they have sex with.

@Sorrel that just adds additional double standards to the list.

So pregnancy and abortion are things that would happen to a woman’s body, therefore she should be able to choose if they happen. Circumcision is something that would happen to a baby boys body, therefore he should be able to choose if it happens. There is not a double standard. In both cases the person whose body is being affected, should be making the decision on what their body will do/what they will do to their body.

@Victoria~ what about "no uterus, no opinion" / "no penis, no opinion"? Yes, pregnancy is the womans body. Abortion happens to that same baby boy.

Everyone’s gunna have an opinion on everything no matter what gender they are and what gender their opinion is on. Telling someone they “can’t” have an opinion makes no sense. Naturally people have those. Couples should choose together what’s best for their children, and if you can’t come to a consensus, why the hell did you have a baby with that person in the first place?

It is about right and wrong. Like I said I personally couldn't go through with my abortion, because I decided I could let MY body go through with the pregnancy. I then carried the lump of cells until it became a baby. Circumcision is making a decision for SOMEONE ELSE body. Idc whether the decision maker has a vagina, a penis, something in between or both. The only one to make that the decision is the baby who the body belongs to. Not father, not mother.

What do you mean incognito?

@Haley Yes ofc I did. I had 4 ultra sounds for my daughter cause high risk and 3 for my son. I had my first ultrasound on my boy very early, when he was actually just a lump of cells due to having to date it for the tests/abortion. It was barely visible even for the person performing the ultrasound. I also had an early of my daughter when she still had the yolk sac before the placenta. So I did see both of them when they were lumps of cells.

One is an adult making decisions about healthcare. The other is adults making decisions about an unnecessary procedure on a baby that has no capacity to consent. I don’t understand the comparison.

I don’t understand being against circumcising because the baby boy “should be able to choose if it happens” and yet being okay with abortion. The aborted child also doesn’t have a say in what’s happening to them. Double. Standards.

@Lorna not to put you specifically on the spot, but a lot of people have this wrong and yours was the first I read in this thread so I’m tagging you. Pro-abortion isn’t really a thing. And if people are saying that as their choice of words, it doesn’t negate the fact that pro-choice is the correct terminology. You saying that you think it’s a woman’s choice makes you pro-choice and not pro-life. Pro-life is anti-abortion which is why pro-abortion gets thrown around but honestly, Pro-Choice is simply that you believe it’s your own choice. Pro-choice isn’t inherently pro-abortion and I wish that everyone understood this.

The argument against a woman having an abortion isn’t “if you don’t have a penis you don’t have a say” as women wouldn’t let other women tell them what to do either. That saying is for how policies and legislation gets put through by men who don’t understand the pain, consequences or even general medical knowledge of owning a uterus so they shouldn’t be the ones deciding anything. No one has a say against an abortion except the person getting it, and no one should get to decide on a circumcision except for the one who owns the penis being circumcised, except for genuine medical necessity.

@Jill I would personally disagree with that. I use the term pro abortion. And more people should. Just like I’m pro knee replacement and pro chemo. And pro insulin for diabetics. Abortion is necessary healthcare just like any other form of healthcare.

Also it is not a baby until it is born, that is why it is not a double standard about having an abortion being “done to the baby”. That is a fact.

@Isabelle it is factually, and medically not a baby. Just as batter is not a cake and a caterpillar is not a butterfly. Just because something may turn into something else does not make it prematurely so.

@Haley it is not a child. That’s why

lol I figured you were gonna say that. The pregnant woman is choosing what happens to HER OWN body. What happens to the embryo or fetus inside her is a result of what she chooses to do with her body. If someone chooses to take one of my kidneys to live, that doesn’t mean I need to give it to them. Since it is my body being used, I am choosing what happens to it. If an embryo could choose and it chose to use my body to grow, I don’t need to give it to them. because it is my body that would be used. Their choice for their body doesn’t allow them to use my body as they choose.

@Emy I don’t understand that point of view. Your profile says that you’re pregnant… so, what are you pregnant with? If not a child, or a baby, then what exactly?

@Haley I’m pregnant with a fetus. Hope that helps!

@Haley I can’t be pregnant with a child, as that’s a person over the age of 1, and I can’t be pregnant with a baby as it’s only a baby once the fetus is born. Feel free to refer to a doctor or midwife for any more help on the matter

@Emy, it is definitely a baby prior to being born. What is it then, if not a baby? Does it magically change form as it passes through the birth canal? If it is not a baby, but only the potential to turn into one, then you also agree that a double homicide can not be the case if a pregnant woman is killed? Or if she falls and the "potential" dies, then it isn't the loss of a baby? Women do let other women tell them what to do. All the time. I'm specifically asking about a double standard. Both in speech and action. If "no uterus, no opinion" is valid, then so would be "no penis, no opinion." The same would then go for policies and legislation for circumcision, then, correct? Because it's male dominated, then they determine the laws around the procedure and legality because they are penis owners. So then women don't get to have an opinion on it. If the caveat for circumcision is "medically necessary," then shouldn't the same be for abortion? Both alter the life of another living human, regardless of age.

Very confused abt what is supposed to be a double standard here. Yes if a person does not have a penis they should not make a decision on someone else’s penis. Other people who have penises should also not make decisions on a persons penis. Only that individual person can make the decision about their own body. Anyway, I’ve always assumed the no uterus no opinion thing is referencing patriarchal power imbalances and the way women are controlled in a patriarchal system.

If a woman miscarries it is a loss of a fetus. Obviously women who are planning to be pregnant to term and to give birth (including myself) call it a baby in general conversation, but that doesn’t change the medically accurate term. Our feelings don’t change facts. I Will ofcourse be sad if I was to miscarry even though it isn’t a “baby” right now. Again my feelings don’t change the facts. We can all have opinions on what we consider right or wrong, but that doesn’t change the facts. I can see an argument for having male policy makers for circumcision. BUT, again this isn’t really the same thing, with abortion the policies are for banning and limiting this, which affects women hugely, taking away a decision from them. But circumcision isn’t usually a decision that’s being made by the person getting it done, it’s being forced upon them. If abortion was legal but then was forced upon women surely we would be horrified? All medical procedures should be a choice to the altered person

A choice to the altered person, unless medically necessary and unable to make that decision themselves. And again, a fetus does not have rights. Also If I was to die if I specifically didn’t get your organ or blood etc, you’re still not obliged to give it to me as it is your body, just as no women is obliged to use her body in any way she doesn’t want to

When it come to abortion I think men can have an opinion but shouldn’t be the main people making that decision in terms of legality unless they are throughly educated on it(ie an OB) As far as being choosing to be a father they should have to make that decision in the same time frame as the women has. Obviously an issue with this would be the woman telling the man in a timely manner or if an abortion medically necessary.

@Emy don’t condescend to me just because your views are different than mine. I know you don’t know me or my background but I can assure you it’s not necessary to speak to me like I’m an idiot. I’m very aware of the medical terminology for the different stages of fetal development, but that doesn’t change my values or opinion on the beginning of life.

@Haley very telling you thought that was condescension? You asked a question and I gave a short, simple and correct answer. It seems you are deflecting the matter at hand and switching over to blame me for a perceived tone. This is a type of ad hominem and quite see through. Not saying you’re an idiot, if you knew the answer to your question, why ask it?

@Haley ah right. Seeing as you have now edited your comment. Yes that doesn’t change your opinions. Just as your opinions doesn’t change the facts. Neither do mine.

I understand what you mean by the double standards. Also, fetus literally means unborn baby

@Hiba technically it has to be 9 weeks-birth for it to be a fetus

@Maddy I understand that. I was referring to how people say it's not a baby but a fetus. Yet a fetus literally means unborn baby

@Emy a baby is considered a fetus until 9 weeks of pregnancy, it’s also assigned its sex at around this time! A baby is a baby, and as I said, I do not judge anyone for whatever they choose to do with their body! But it’s also important to understand the facts, I wish you a great rest of your pregnancy :)

@Isabelle wrong. It is an embryo until week 9. Then a fetus until birth. A baby is a baby and a fetus is a fetus. I don’t judge what people choose for their body either. But you’re right, get the facts correct first!

@Isabelle and actually to be more precise it is a zygote and then a blastocyst before this